Fallout 4... yay or nay??

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Fallout 4... yay or nay??

Post by Stoibs » 10 Nov 2015, 12:14

Just read the front page news article/review.
Wow.. it's even worse than I thought and what I've been saying about the dumbing down and moving away from a proper RPG experience and its roots for a while now with such a combat heavy emphasis and an outright lack of roleplaying/social abilities and options. =(
Fuck me Bethesda...

Guess I'm glad I didn't fall for the hype and was completely uninterested in this one ever since the early reveals and info drops. Might still pick it up for a fiver or something in a few years I guess..
Still sad to see what has become of and how far my once favorite franchise has fallen though.

As a silver lining I suppose I'm even more excited for Torment Tides of Numenera as another proper RPG experience now than what I originally was, just gotta finish up my Wasteland 2 Director's cut and Divinity HD replays.
Meh. :(
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 10 Nov 2015, 12:42

Stoibs wrote:Just read the front page news article/review.
Wow.. it's even worse than I thought and what I've been saying about the dumbing down and moving away from a proper RPG experience and its roots for a while now with such a combat heavy emphasis and an outright lack of roleplaying/social abilities and options. =(
Fuck me Bethesda...

Guess I'm glad I didn't fall for the hype and was completely uninterested in this one ever since the early reveals and info drops. Might still pick it up for a fiver or something in a few years I guess..
Still sad to see what has become of and how far my once favorite franchise has fallen though.

As a silver lining I suppose I'm even more excited for Torment Tides of Numenera as another proper RPG experience now than what I originally was, just gotta finish up my Wasteland 2 Director's cut and Divinity HD replays.
Meh. :(
I remember being shouted down and having phrases like "nostalgia" and "rose-tinted glasses" thrown around whenever anybody criticized the new character system on GoN. Looking at the review it appears the criticism was justified. :(
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Matty » 10 Nov 2015, 12:48

Well to be fair, I only see the same people criticicing it and still refuse to even try it. It's getting absolute stellar reviews across the board.

72/76 reviewers rated it 8/10 or higher.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Stoibs » 10 Nov 2015, 12:59

Yeah GoN was the home of the "YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HOLD THAT OPINION, CLEARLY YOU ARE NOSTALGICALLY REMINISCING WITH ROSE TINTED GLASSES HURR DURR" -_-
Matty wrote:Well to be fair, I only see the same people criticicing it and still refuse to even try it. It's getting absolute stellar reviews across the board.
As I said I'm just going from Playerattack's front page news article here so far which is going into these details and concerns in regards to the (lack of) roleplaying and issues that us long-time original Fallout fans or just cRPG fans in general are interested in. From what I'm reading it's basically what I initially thought way back when we first started seeing the original teasers and information:
A dumbed down FPS that is a stretch to even assign the 'RPG' label to.

I’m glad to be proven wrong, but at the moment the franchise is just a huge write-off and nope from me, and I long for the day that I can (Theoretically and hopefully) kickstart Inxile's Van Buren project.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 10 Nov 2015, 12:59

Matty wrote:Well to be fair, I only see the same people criticicing it and still refuse to even try it. It's getting absolute stellar reviews across the board.

72/76 reviewers rated it 8/10 or higher.
That's probably because, in classic Bethsoft fashion, they've made a really nice open world adventure game, which is why it's getting rave reviews. That said if the only forms of interacting with the world is killing stuff and talking to major characters in a really stilted form then it's not much of an RPG.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's fun, and I'll eventually be heading in myself in the near future for a go. But it doesn't seem like Fallout any more. Probably more like Rage 2, with lots of upgrades.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Sathias » 10 Nov 2015, 13:02

Matty wrote:Well to be fair, I only see the same people criticicing it and still refuse to even try it. It's getting absolute stellar reviews across the board.

72/76 reviewers rated it 8/10 or higher.
This. I choose to play it for what it is rather than for what it isn't, and I'll likely have a better time because of it.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by jambo » 10 Nov 2015, 13:08

Stoibs wrote:As I said I'm just going from Playerattack's front page news article here so far which is going into these details and concerns in regards to the (lack of) roleplaying and issues that us long-time original Fallout fans or just cRPG fans in general are interested in. From what I'm reading it's basically what I initially thought way back when we first started seeing the original teasers and information:
A dumbed down FPS that is a stretch to even assign the 'RPG' label to.
While it's a lot leaner than traditional RPGs, it's still an RPG.

It has conversational and action based decision making that effects the world and story, it has levelling, it has loot and it has quests. It even has dice-roll based combat with VATS.

I'm ok with Fallout being developed in this way, as I really like shooters, and there are still a bunch of great traditional RPGs being made, largely thanks to Kickstarter. I can definitely understand how a long time Fallout fan would feel though, always hoping for a return to the old school vibe and gameplay. At least you got Wasteland 2?
Sathias wrote:It's a tough balance because eventually those issues would be fixed, then the review wouldn't reflect the actual game.
Yes, but people are buying the game now. If it gets fixed up in the future, you can have a Review 2.0
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 10 Nov 2015, 13:15

jambo wrote:While it's a lot leaner than traditional RPGs, it's still an RPG.

It has conversational and action based decision making that effects the world and story, it has levelling, it has loot and it has quests. It even has dice-roll based combat with VATS.

I'm ok with Fallout being developed in this way, as I really like shooters, and there are still a bunch of great traditional RPGs being made, largely thanks to Kickstarter. I can definitely understand how a long time Fallout fan would feel though, always hoping for a return to the old school vibe and gameplay. At least you got Wasteland 2?
Sathias wrote:It's a tough balance because eventually those issues would be fixed, then the review wouldn't reflect the actual game.
Yes, but people are buying the game now. If it gets fixed up in the future, you can have a Review 2.0
I can talk to certain folk in the GTA series, they are not RPGs.
You have stats and levelling in CoD multiplayer, it's not an RPG.
You have loot and quests in the Legend of Zelda series of games, they're also not RPGs.

The thing is an RPG isn't just what you stated. If all you do is wander around, shoot things and talk to the occasional character at best it's an ARPG like Diablo. Otherwise, look at something like Oblivion or Morrowind for more of what an RPG is like.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Sathias » 10 Nov 2015, 13:18

jambo wrote:Yes, but people are buying the game now. If it gets fixed up in the future, you can have a Review 2.0
That is generally not how the games journalism works, but I can certainly see the argument why it should. Once the review comes out and Metacritic grabs the score, that is the score it has from then on.
vcatkiller wrote:I can talk to certain folk in the GTA series, they are not RPGs.
You have stats and levelling in CoD multiplayer, it's not an RPG.
You have loot and quests in the Legend of Zelda series of games, they're also not RPGs.

The thing is an RPG isn't just what you stated. If all you do is wander around, shoot things and talk to the occasional character at best it's an ARPG like Diablo. Otherwise, look at something like Oblivion or Morrowind for more of what an RPG is like.
That seems to me to be as pointless an argument as whether or not metal/dance music/avante garde/jazz/whatever "is" or "isn't" music.

What it appears to me by your definitions is that to be a "proper" RPG the dicerolling and character systems need to be more visible and obvious. Which I'd argue, while it has it's merits, it can hinder immersion. Oblivion is a great example of this. How many times in Oblivion do you start to think about meta-concepts such as making sure you advance a certain number of skills so you can min-max your stat multipliers when going up a level?

In the end I think about CRPGs similar to I do pen and paper RPGs, the systems are there as a means to the end and the real goal is what is suggested in the acronym, playing a particular role. I haven't played Fallout 4 yet so I don't know if it has succeeded in that goal for me personally.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Stoibs » 10 Nov 2015, 13:20

jambo wrote:
It has conversational and action based decision making
Does it?
Last time I heard it uses that abhorrent 'mass effect' style phrase wheel that literally doesn't even let you roleplay properly by arbitrarily failing to give the actual player all the relevant information about what their character intends to say, thus causing the frequency of the quicksave/quickload to spike before almost every dialogue like what I was forced to do in the aforementioned Mass Effect games.
Unless this was touted as being worse than it actually is from the early release teasers..

Indeed a third party mod that fixes this to give us actual proper written out lines would be up there as number one on my wish list by the time I get around to obtaining and playing this one.

The other things you mentioned don't just automatically make something an RPG at it's core in any event when all the things that do have been stripped out.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by jambo » 10 Nov 2015, 13:32

vcatkiller wrote:I can talk to certain folk in the GTA series, they are not RPGs.
You have stats and levelling in CoD multiplayer, it's not an RPG.
You have loot and quests in the Legend of Zelda series of games, they're also not RPGs.

The thing is an RPG isn't just what you stated. If all you do is wander around, shoot things and talk to the occasional character at best it's an ARPG like Diablo. Otherwise, look at something like Oblivion or Morrowind for more of what an RPG is like.
The talking to people in GTA is pretty much 99% walk in to area and a cut scene plays. You aren't picking the conversational choices.
CoD is not an RPG, but those unlocking and levelling mechanics are most definitely RPG elements.
Zelda is generally categorised as action adventure, but it too has some RPG elements, especially in Zelda II.

Fallout 3 was always jokingly called Oblivion with guns. I'm struggling to think of the major differences between something like Oblivion/Morrowind and Fallout 3/4.

I'm not a huge RPG guy, so I might be missing some details that do separate them.
Stoibs wrote:
jambo wrote:
It has conversational and action based decision making
Does it?
Last time I heard it uses that abhorrent 'mass effect' style phrase wheel that literally doesn't even let you roleplay properly by arbitrarily failing to give the actual player all the relevant information about what their character intends to say, thus causing the frequency of the quicksave/quickload to spike before almost every dialogue like what I was forced to do in the aforementioned Mass Effect games.
Unless this was touted as being worse than it actually is from the early release teasers..
I actually agree about the conversational stuff, I much prefer the more detailed options of previous Bethesda games. I've heard in a few reviews that the choices are sometimes misleading and can lead you to a choice that you didn't want to make.
Stoibs wrote:The other things you mentioned don't just automatically make something an RPG at it's core in any event when all the things that do have been stripped out.
Again, I'm not a huge RPG expert, so what are all the things that have been stripped out that make a game a classic RPG?
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 10 Nov 2015, 13:32

Sathias wrote: That seems to me to be as pointless an argument as whether or not metal/dance music/avante garde/jazz/whatever "is" or "isn't" music.

What it appears to me by your definitions is that to be a "proper" RPG the dicerolling and character systems need to be more visible and obvious. Which I'd argue, while it has it's merits, it can hinder immersion. Oblivion is a great example of this. How many times in Oblivion do you start to think about meta-concepts such as making sure you advance a certain number of skills so you can min-max your stat multipliers when going up a level?

In the end I think about CRPGs similar to I do pen and paper RPGs, the systems are there as a means to the end and the real goal is what is suggested in the acronym, playing a particular role. I haven't played Fallout 4 yet so I don't know if it has succeeded in that goal for me personally.
The thing is it's not the lack of stats that is bugging people here, it's only the symptom. Most reviews I have read so far have made mention of exactly the same problems as what was made in the Player Attack article, which is you're not really playing a role any more. Your character is reduced to a murder bot who sometimes has highly structured conversations with people. The world is huge and atmospheric, the characters interesting, but the player is just the player, not the character he created. Hence, not an RPG.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Dinofreak » 10 Nov 2015, 13:43

I see what people are saying with it not being 'old school' Fallout but look at how well The Witcher 3 was received. Essentially you are forced to play a role, with limited options for RPGing but if the world has the right atmosphere and polish, it is fantastic. The only different here is that W3 is far better than its predecessors but Fallout has had to change from what it was to compete. I love the old Fallouts but I would have invested more time into the newer ones (thanks to some incredible mods) but I guess that I am lucky that I'm an action rpg fan.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 10 Nov 2015, 13:44

jambo wrote:
vcatkiller wrote:I can talk to certain folk in the GTA series, they are not RPGs.
You have stats and levelling in CoD multiplayer, it's not an RPG.
You have loot and quests in the Legend of Zelda series of games, they're also not RPGs.

The thing is an RPG isn't just what you stated. If all you do is wander around, shoot things and talk to the occasional character at best it's an ARPG like Diablo. Otherwise, look at something like Oblivion or Morrowind for more of what an RPG is like.
The talking to people in GTA is pretty much 99% walk in to area and a cut scene plays. You aren't picking the conversational choices.
CoD is not an RPG, but those unlocking and levelling mechanics are most definitely RPG elements.
Zelda is generally categorised as action adventure, but it too has some RPG elements, especially in Zelda II.

Fallout 3 was always jokingly called Oblivion with guns. I'm struggling to think of the major differences between something like Oblivion/Morrowind and Fallout 3/4.

I'm not a huge RPG guy, so I might be missing some details that do separate them.
Ok GTA was a bad example. What about Monkey Island? You talk to people in that too, in fact some puzzles involve talking to the right people so as to progress. It's not an RPG.

The point is that the things you mention do not make an RPG. The ability to create a character and adopt a playstyle around that character constitutes an RPG. It isn't just about the different ways to murder people and complete quests so a magic number can hit the next target and you magically go up a level.

Let's say, for example, you're approached by a group of bandits in the game. What can you do? Run in guns blazing? Bluff your way out with a silver tongue? Bribe them to go away? Lure them into an ambush? Bully them into submission? Join them and tell them about a huge stash of loot you'd like them to help you with? Can you do all that and more in FO4? Or can you just shoot them in the face like a murder bot?
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Matty » 10 Nov 2015, 13:46

What makes an RPG?
vcatkiller wrote: Let's say, for example, you're approached by a group of bandits in the game. What can you do? Run in guns blazing? Bluff your way out with a silver tongue? Bribe them to go away? Lure them into an ambush? Bully them into submission? Join them and tell them about a huge stash of loot you'd like them to help you with? Can you do all that and more in FO4? Or can you just shoot them in the face like a murder bot?
You sure could in FO3, and NV, and Skyrim, and Oblivion. In FO3 instead of getting caught as a slave I talked my way into joining the slavers and went around the wasteland putting slave collars on random NPCs for money, when you go back to collect your money you can go see your slaves locked up in cells. You did play FO3, NV, Skyrim and Oblivion, yeah?
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by jambo » 10 Nov 2015, 13:51

vcatkiller wrote:The point is that the things you mention do not make an RPG. The ability to create a character and adopt a playstyle around that character constitutes an RPG. It isn't just about the different ways to murder people and complete quests so a magic number can hit the next target and you magically go up a level.

Let's say, for example, you're approached by a group of bandits in the game. What can you do? Run in guns blazing? Bluff your way out with a silver tongue? Bribe them to go away? Lure them into an ambush? Bully them into submission? Join them and tell them about a huge stash of loot you'd like them to help you with? Can you do all that and more in FO4? Or can you just shoot them in the face like a murder bot?
Well you certainly can create a character and adpot a playstyle in Fallout 3, it's just you're limited when it comes to combat options. I'm sure Fallout 4 will be similar.

I've seen crazy videos on YouTube where people have gone full stealth and killed almost no one, or gone full speech and charisma to talk their way out of situations.

Of course the issue is that the situations in which you can talk your way out are limited to main story and side quests, not all random encounters, so most times you encounter hostile mobs you have to either run, hide or fight.

Were you able to talk your way out of all the combat in the original Fallout games? I might need to check them out if so. I just started playing Pathfinder with a group of people and have been loving the open ended way our story is unfolding and the choices you have.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 10 Nov 2015, 13:56

Matty wrote:What makes an RPG?
vcatkiller wrote: Let's say, for example, you're approached by a group of bandits in the game. What can you do? Run in guns blazing? Bluff your way out with a silver tongue? Bribe them to go away? Lure them into an ambush? Bully them into submission? Join them and tell them about a huge stash of loot you'd like them to help you with? Can you do all that and more in FO4? Or can you just shoot them in the face like a murder bot?
You sure could in FO3, and NV, and Skyrim, and Oblivion. In FO3 instead of getting caught as a slave I talked my way into joining the slavers and went around the wasteland putting slave collars on random NPCs for money, when you go back to collect your money you can go see your slaves locked up in cells. You did play FO3, NV, Skyrim and Oblivion, yeah?
That's right you could. But we're talking about FO4 here. Can you do that in FO4?
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Sathias » 10 Nov 2015, 13:58

vcatkiller wrote:
Matty wrote:What makes an RPG?
vcatkiller wrote: Let's say, for example, you're approached by a group of bandits in the game. What can you do? Run in guns blazing? Bluff your way out with a silver tongue? Bribe them to go away? Lure them into an ambush? Bully them into submission? Join them and tell them about a huge stash of loot you'd like them to help you with? Can you do all that and more in FO4? Or can you just shoot them in the face like a murder bot?
You sure could in FO3, and NV, and Skyrim, and Oblivion. In FO3 instead of getting caught as a slave I talked my way into joining the slavers and went around the wasteland putting slave collars on random NPCs for money, when you go back to collect your money you can go see your slaves locked up in cells. You did play FO3, NV, Skyrim and Oblivion, yeah?
That's right you could. But we're talking about FO4 here. Can you do that in FO4?
None of us know for sure, because you refuse to play it, I'm waiting for it to download, Matty is arguing in the thread instead of playing, and everyone else is too busy playing to read this thread :P
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Sathias » 10 Nov 2015, 14:02

jambo wrote:Were you able to talk your way out of all the combat in the original Fallout games? I might need to check them out if so. I just started playing Pathfinder with a group of people and have been loving the open ended way our story is unfolding and the choices you have.
No, there's a bit of rose coloured glasses going on. A non-combat character struggles to get through the first area with all the rats and ants. You can talk your way out of a set encounter at the end of the temple though. Stealth wasn't really viable for the most part either, much more viable in FO3 or Skyrim. The fact that it is text based meant there was a LOT more dialog options, including specific options if you made a char with INT 3 or below. But there were plenty of areas where combat is unavoidable.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Stoibs » 10 Nov 2015, 14:07

jambo wrote:
Were you able to talk your way out of all the combat in the original Fallout games?
With the right investment in speech and having read certain other information and data it was possible to outright talk down the Master mutant in the original game, bypassing the final boss fight entirely.
With high outdoorsman for worldmap travel and taking companions I suppose it would be somewhat possible for more of a pacifist run throughout also.

Fallout 2 was a lot better in this regard even further, Speech being arguably one of the most powerful skills IMO. The opening temple of trials was a bit of a bitch for non-combat oriented characters and pretty poor design admittedly, but even that had a final NPC at the end that could be circumvented atleast 3 different ways using either diplomacy or cunningness or brute force. Loads of different factions and groups or sides to take or negotiate in the sequel as a whole also.

Truth be told I've never tried a purely pacifist run, but that's not exactly what we're talking about anyway. Just less of an emphasis and focus on mandatory combat and the game being designed around it first and foremost and more social or non-confrontational alternate methods of roleplaying would have been nice.
(Again, this is my perception and interpretation of Fallout 4 based on reviews and user experience I've been reading so far - having not played it myself I'm not sure how prevalent it really is throughout the game)

EDIT: Oh wow there's that rose tinted glasses comment again. Hilarious ;)
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Matty » 10 Nov 2015, 14:18

Sathias wrote:
vcatkiller wrote:
Matty wrote:What makes an RPG?



You sure could in FO3, and NV, and Skyrim, and Oblivion. In FO3 instead of getting caught as a slave I talked my way into joining the slavers and went around the wasteland putting slave collars on random NPCs for money, when you go back to collect your money you can go see your slaves locked up in cells. You did play FO3, NV, Skyrim and Oblivion, yeah?
That's right you could. But we're talking about FO4 here. Can you do that in FO4?
None of us know for sure, because you refuse to play it, I'm waiting for it to download, Matty is arguing in the thread instead of playing, and everyone else is too busy playing to read this thread :P
Wut? I've been playing for nearly the last hour and a half.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 10 Nov 2015, 14:20

Sathias wrote:
vcatkiller wrote:
Matty wrote:What makes an RPG?



You sure could in FO3, and NV, and Skyrim, and Oblivion. In FO3 instead of getting caught as a slave I talked my way into joining the slavers and went around the wasteland putting slave collars on random NPCs for money, when you go back to collect your money you can go see your slaves locked up in cells. You did play FO3, NV, Skyrim and Oblivion, yeah?
That's right you could. But we're talking about FO4 here. Can you do that in FO4?
None of us know for sure, because you refuse to play it, I'm waiting for it to download, Matty is arguing in the thread instead of playing, and everyone else is too busy playing to read this thread :P
Where have I said I refuse to play it? The closest you could possibly get is I don't want to play it yet. I'm actually rather interested to play it, but from everything I've read it doesn't seem much like an RPG and more just an open-world adventure with some RPGish stuff stuck on.

And yeah, can we please stop it with the "rose-tinted glasses" comments? Seriously not helping.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Sathias » 10 Nov 2015, 14:36

vcatkiller wrote:Where have I said I refuse to play it? The closest you could possibly get is I don't want to play it yet. I'm actually rather interested to play it, but from everything I've read it doesn't seem much like an RPG and more just an open-world adventure with some RPGish stuff stuck on.

And yeah, can we please stop it with the "rose-tinted glasses" comments? Seriously not helping.
I was intending that as tongue-in-cheek, all good :)
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 10 Nov 2015, 14:52

Sathias wrote:
vcatkiller wrote:Where have I said I refuse to play it? The closest you could possibly get is I don't want to play it yet. I'm actually rather interested to play it, but from everything I've read it doesn't seem much like an RPG and more just an open-world adventure with some RPGish stuff stuck on.

And yeah, can we please stop it with the "rose-tinted glasses" comments? Seriously not helping.
I was intending that as tongue-in-cheek, all good :)
Ah ok. Sorry then, I might be getting overly defensive... :(
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 10 Nov 2015, 21:19

storm84 wrote:The whole "rose-tinted glasses" only makes sense when certain features of the original are looked back on with fondness despite their flaws or drawbacks to that system. It doesn't really apply here given the specific criticisms made of Fallout 4. That 4 has lost its RPG elements has nothing to do with how anyone views the original.
Apparently now disliking a feature in the latest game means you're wearing rose-tinted glasses now though. I hate the term nearly as much as the word "entitled" nowadays, both are abused and misused really badly...
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