Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

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Sathias
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Sathias » 05 Jul 2016, 13:12

His plan to use the Senate to legally commit contempt of court is a bit of a worry, it's a misuse of the separation of powers. Apart from that I'm willing to wait and see how he acts before making up my mind.
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Spooler
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Spooler » 05 Jul 2016, 14:12

I honestly think it should be a public offender list personally. With how hard it is to get a conviction on somebody that stain should never be washed out.

Especially for rape, murder, assault, arson, breaking and entering.

I honestly kind of want to get rid of the whole concept of innocent untill proven guilty personally, speak to enough victims of crime and you very quickly learn that the concept behind it is flawed, as if someone is innocent untill proven guilty the accusing party is therefore a liar untill proved not to be. If you're someone who's spent their life on the receiving end of sexual abuse from a family member it's not exactly the greatest feeling in the world.

It'll never happen though as not enough people get to actually experience the justice system to be as outraged at how fallible it is as they ought to be.
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Sathias
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Sathias » 05 Jul 2016, 17:02

Spooler wrote:I honestly kind of want to get rid of the whole concept of innocent untill proven guilty personally, speak to enough victims of crime and you very quickly learn that the concept behind it is flawed, as if someone is innocent untill proven guilty the accusing party is therefore a liar untill proved not to be. If you're someone who's spent their life on the receiving end of sexual abuse from a family member it's not exactly the greatest feeling in the world.
Are you serious? :shock:

Surely your example, if reversed, would cause worse issues? Someone lie about your guilt, and if you can't disprove it, you go to jail and on a public register??? If the justice system is that fallible, surely having the bias towards mistakenly jailing innocent people is a problem?
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Spooler
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Spooler » 05 Jul 2016, 17:11

Totally serious, I can tell you right now there is no worse issue than 4 girls in the same family getting raped one court case after another.

Each time a girl came forward it was it's own court case because he was molesting them 1 at a time the guy managed to get a not guilty and then the previous case could not be brought up in court as he was "innocent" of that crime, the mother helped.

I wish I were joking and that's not even the worst thing someone has managed to get away with that I'm aware of.
I seriously can't stress enough that you think our justice system is anything beyond a complete failure when it comes to actually carrying out justice you need to spend some of your spare time helping victims that have come forward. Especially those abused by parental figures and domestic violence victims.



Honestly though the whole system needs to be changed, there needs to be different levels of evidence required and the rules for each court case need to be independent of each other.
For example murder the current standard is pretty reasonable, child abuse it needs to be raised a million fold, mostly because victims often don't (read can't) come forward untill years after the abuse.

As it currently stands the system falls short on all counts.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Sathias » 05 Jul 2016, 17:19

I agree that what you have described is a problem, and a big one, but surely there are other ways of solving it than turning the entire justice system on its head and causing other, possibly worse issues? An innocent person copping a serious charge is an absolute tragedy, their life might as well be over, even if they have done nothing wrong. DNA evidence has shown that there are people who already spend decades in jail for crimes they do not commit, and in the US innocent people even get executed. The sort of change you are talking about would greatly increase these instances.

As a possible solution, maybe there should be rules to allow the prosecution to combine those sorts of cases so their testimony is treated as supporting one another, rather than using one to invalidate the other? Look at cases like Bill Cosby or Rolf Harris, in those cases the testimony was combined to show a pattern of behaviour. I don't accept that there aren't ways that the system could be improved without such drastic measures.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Matty » 05 Jul 2016, 18:05

Spooler wrote:I honestly think it should be a public offender list personally.
I don't believe the justice system should be about petty vengeance and hate.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Sathias » 05 Jul 2016, 18:48

Well I heard Derryn Hinch on Hack and I can't make up my mind about him. Agree with some of the stuff he says but then other stuff makes me think he's just going to add to the trainwreck.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Otto-matic Reiffel » 05 Jul 2016, 19:17

The main issue with a public offenders list is when does it end? They aren't ever going to get off the list (copies will be made), you might as well keep them in jail forever. They won't be able to get a job and will inevitably turn to crime again to eat if nothing else.

Also Spooler is clearly a witch. Given the complete lack of evidence to the contrary we have no choice but burning at the stake :twisted:

The justice system should be about both deterrence and rehabilitation, not vengeance. It has issues as in the example above that need to be worked on, but brutalising people doesn't help anyone in the end.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Ralph Wiggum » 05 Jul 2016, 19:29

Sathias wrote:Well I heard Derryn Hinch on Hack and I can't make up my mind about him. Agree with some of the stuff he says but then other stuff makes me think he's just going to add to the trainwreck.
Yeah, he's a bit of a mixed bag, but I find myself agreeing with about 85% of his policies which I guess is the best I could hope for with politics. Mind you, his policy platform is fairly narrow so it remains to be seen what he does.

Edit: not gonna step into the debate about sex offender registers. Deal with that already at work :/
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Spooler » 05 Jul 2016, 20:18

You really have to spend time with people AND the justice system itself to see the impact of current system.

It's so far from just it's not funny.

Really the whole thing needs to be dropped and rebuilt to be far more flexible than it is.

As for "the justice system should be just"

Yea ... I don't really think a list of serious criminal offenses and the people that have committed them is petty vengeance or hate filled.
If you think time served is a just punishment for destroying lives you really need to spend some time with people that have been victims of serious crime.

Especially when after time served 50% of people will end up straight back there.

"but they'll never get work"
We're not talking about people double parking here, we're talking about people that have committed truly terrible crimes with malice of for thought that have DESTROYED LIVES.
Also https://www.humanrights.gov.au/human-ri ... l-record-0
An employer can already access this information if they want to and unless your criminal history makes you unable to do the job they cannot use it as a reason not to hire you.
Honestly there's more unemployed than there are jobs, I don't really give a shit if life is harder for someone who for example raped their best friends daughter or murdered their wife or burnt down their house.


I should be more clear I'm not saying anyone off the street can make an accusation and then it immediately goes to court that's ridiculous and more or less the existing civil system (civil law is even worse don't get me started).
What I'm saying is after a police investigation after the public prosecutor has said "yes we need to take this to trial", then at that point flip it on it's head especially in child abuse cases or better yet remove the "beyond reasonable doubt" and replace it with "must make logical sense".
As it stands a prosecutor cannot even question the defendant.

I used to be in favor of the presumption of innocence then I actually experienced the system, I saw how hard it is to the victim I saw all the shit someone has to go through all the disruptions to their life only for them to not get justice and worse for the failure of the justice system to hurt someone else.

Last year I saw someone get 2 mis-trials because the jury couldn't reach a verdict before finally getting a not guilty verdict a month later the defendant killed someone.

Each trial was about 6 months apart it took over 2 years of being asked intermittently to relive the worst moments of the victims life for them to get no justice. And not just that but to get no help afterwards, if you're a victim of child abuse chances are you're already struggling you get a not guilty and all of a sudden all that help you were getting often just vanishes the government no longer cares about paying for you to get psychiatric treatment.



I really wish I could convey how bad it is being a victim and coming forward but I can't it really is something you have to see you need to spend the week of the trial with someone ,you need to see the families, you need to watch a mountain of evidence get ignored and a not guilty verdict get reached.



I could honestly go on about this for days and it's kind of hard not to, to be honest it's one of those things that just pours out of you. But I won't it's really one of those things that the theoretics of sound good but the practice of it is just horrifically bad.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Matty » 06 Jul 2016, 00:31

Spooler wrote:You really have to spend time with people AND the justice system itself to see the impact of current system.

I really wish I could convey how bad it is being a victim and coming forward but I can't it really is something you have to see you need to spend the week of the trial with someone ,you need to see the families, you need to watch a mountain of evidence get ignored and a not guilty verdict get reached.
This is an extremely self centered way to put your view across. How do you know what anyone here has been through or experienced before forming their opinion?

EDIT:

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/politics ... utism.html
How's that for a headline?
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Spooler » 06 Jul 2016, 00:57

Its not self centered, more like arrogant or self assured.

I dont know what anyone on here has experienced for all i know there are victims on this forum i have tried to help through their trial(s) as mentioned I've volunteered some time doing that.

I'm just assuming that if you're ok with the legal system as is you're either a psychopath or you've never seen the tremendous harm it causes (or can cause) victims.

I honestly can't believe that anyone not emotionally dead could spend a month or 2 with victims going through the system and not be incredibly angered by it.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Matty » 06 Jul 2016, 00:59

Welp. That's all you're gonna get from me. :)
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Makena » 06 Jul 2016, 08:52

Spooler wrote:I'm just assuming that if you're ok with the legal system as is you're either a psychopath or you've never seen the tremendous harm it causes (or can cause) victims.
...

You really have no idea what people may or may not have gone through, calling them psychopaths for having a different view than you? The fuck.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Spooler » 06 Jul 2016, 09:23

Again it's something i am passionately angry about and firmly believe everyone else who actually experiences it should be aswell.

I struggle to believe anyone who has experience with it could be satisfied with it.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Makena » 06 Jul 2016, 09:28

Spooler wrote:Again it's something i am passionately angry about and firmly believe everyone else who actually experiences it should be aswell.

I struggle to believe anyone who has experience with it could be satisfied with it.
Right, so if they don't agree with you they're a psychopath. Got it.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Nacimota » 06 Jul 2016, 09:49

Spooler wrote:Again it's something i am passionately angry about and firmly believe everyone else who actually experiences it should be aswell.

I struggle to believe anyone who has experience with it could be satisfied with it.
Reading this thread, that's really the main thing I take away from your posts: that you're angry. I'm definitely a strong believer in the presumption of innocence, and I don't support things like the death penalty or a sex offender registry. The main argument I see from people who take an opposing view is, "well, if you had been through X you'd feel differently".

And do you know what? That may even be the case. But to me, it just reads as an argument from someone who is heavily emotionally invested and can no longer look at the situation objectively. It's terrible when victims don't receive justice but it's just as terrible (and often more so) when the innocent are convicted of crimes they didn't commit (I say often more so because in many cases, convicting an innocent person means letting at least one guilty person go free, which means there's been an injustice to multiple people). The system is supposed to prioritize protecting the innocent above all else, and that's how it should be.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Spooler » 06 Jul 2016, 10:30

Makena wrote:
Spooler wrote:Again it's something i am passionately angry about and firmly believe everyone else who actually experiences it should be aswell.

I struggle to believe anyone who has experience with it could be satisfied with it.
Right, so if they don't agree with you they're a psychopath. Got it.

Have you never said something on a topic you were passionate about that was exaggerated for effect ?
Nacimota wrote:Reading this thread, that's really the main thing I take away from your posts: that you're angry. I'm definitely a strong believer in the presumption of innocence, and I don't support things like the death penalty or a sex offender registry. The main argument I see from people who take an opposing view is, "well, if you had been through X you'd feel differently".

And do you know what? That may even be the case. But to me, it just reads as an argument from someone who is heavily emotionally invested and can no longer look at the situation objectively
I completely understand that and honestly up untill about 2013 I felt pretty much exactly the same.
Especially about how much of a cop-out "you have to go through it to get it" sounds like, but I really believe it to be true in this instance because you can't understand how dehumanizing it is to have a jury find you to be a liar and all of a sudden the social services help dries up and you're left on your own with very often no support.

And that's a whole problem in itself, the resources devoted to helping victims fall way short and the resources of the public prosecutor in far too many cases are just non existent.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Ralph Wiggum » 06 Jul 2016, 10:56

Sooo back to the election, and either way, given the slim majority or independent-backed minority government that will be formed, means that the shitty mud-slinging and petty politics will continue for the foreseeable future. It's a good time to be a minority party.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by André Axe'm » 06 Jul 2016, 11:08

Unless it occurs to the Libs and Labor that they can form government together.
Unlikely, but they don't seem to have bigger policy differences than they would have with a minor party.
Or maybe the election campaign was so bland I didn't notice some major differences.
The quality of the election campaign was amazzzzzzz... zzzz.... zzzzzzz.....
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Matty » 06 Jul 2016, 11:11

Ralph Wiggum wrote:Sooo back to the election, and either way, given the slim majority or independent-backed minority government that will be formed, means that the shitty mud-slinging and petty politics will continue for the foreseeable future. It's a good time to be a minority party.
Xenophon gonna make SA great again through lavish demands!
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Ralph Wiggum » 06 Jul 2016, 11:33

Matty wrote:
Ralph Wiggum wrote:Sooo back to the election, and either way, given the slim majority or independent-backed minority government that will be formed, means that the shitty mud-slinging and petty politics will continue for the foreseeable future. It's a good time to be a minority party.
Xenophon gonna make SA great again through lavish demands!
Heh, Xenophon is seen by some here in W.A. as a threat, as he is "protectionist" and any deals with him will only be for SA's interest. So bye-bye GST reform.

I still gave him a vote.
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Matty » 06 Jul 2016, 12:10

Don't make us build a wall! Xenpophon is huge here, he does lot of stuff for his electorate and state. Which is actually his job, sometimes people forget that the person elected to the house of representatives is there to represent their electorate. I still have hope for Grey being NXT, then we can SAEXIT and you'll all be sorry!
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Ralph Wiggum » 06 Jul 2016, 12:20

Screw you man, we've been talking secession here way longer :D We even had a referendum.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secessi ... _Australia

Waxit! Waxit! Waxit!
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Re: Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

Post by Makena » 06 Jul 2016, 12:56

So Coalition minority government, or a coalition coalition gov if you will, 3 years of getting absolutely nothing done?
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